Is reduced discrimination in America likely only if we deemphasize þe politics of race?; 40 years ago next week: Pinochet’s bloody destruction of democracy in Chile; living in a high-debt world...
On racism and guilt -- one thing is very clear to me: you cannot build a long term relationship between groups of people based on guilt, especially over things that they did not do as individuals. It may work in the short run but eventually you will get a push back and people will say "Hell no". Regret on the other hand is different. Regret is an emotion that can be shared. And of course there is the issue of slavery. But one must consider that nearly every person alive today is the descendant of slaves, serfs, and peasants stuck in some system of enforced labor and living on the verge of starvation.
So how would one reframe the situation as one of regret rather than guilt? If slavery was something in the past, that is not impacting the descendants of slavers today, what will make them regret that slavery was institutionalized for their current benefit? Do Russians regret the pogroms? Do Brits regret the colonialism of the empire? (quite the reverse.) As Britain's role in maintaining slavery after its abolition is uncovered, there is a desire to pretend it never happened. Even academics who should be able to compartmentalize seem emotionally engaged. I suspect the that this is much deeper than our "rational" neocortex can deal with, as the emotional "tribalism" is far stronger for many people, especially those that like the outcome. In a different domain, wealthy people do not seem to regret exploiting people while amassing their wealth.
With neo-nazis and white supremacists openly encouraging cleansing of the nation's genetics, what are we supposed to do - just let them without pushing back hard?
Exactly what DeSantis and other "anti-woke" politicians are NOT doing. Political idealogy is forcing itself on education and culture. We know the influence Hollywood (and before it, dime novel publishers) had on the perception of the settlement of the American West. As an economics historian, you know well what the Nazis did to education in Germany, an MO that seems to being followed in the US.
I would say that you cannot get white supremacists to feel guilty but there may be a path to reach the humanity of folks -- not telling them they should be guilty for what their ancestors did but ask them to look clearly and honestly at the past. No one should feel guilt for what someone else has done but one can feel regret. It is my thought that the rise of white supremacy is largely driven by attempts to make people to feel guilty and it just doesnt work.
One might consider that almost everyone today is a descendant or a slave or peasant who lived on the verge of starvation for their entire life.
This seems all rather touchy-feely to me. What evidence do you have to back it up. In addition, how does this apply to the wider phenomenon of hate, e.g. anti-Semitism, and not just in the US, but historically. I think you have to look deeper into human nature, not apply some cultural history to explain hate against out groups.
I would suggest taking a look at Forum for Dialogue, a group in Poland that promotes open dialog with the world wide Jewish community, especially Jews whose ancestors once lived in Poland. http://dialog.org.pl/en/
I think some of this comes out of my own working experience. If you attack folks they become more solidified in their beliefs behind their fortress walls but if you tell them that you dont understand where they are coming from their is an oppotunity, though not a guarentee, that they will lower their guard. Of course it could be that I am wrong, any human can make a mistake.
While such techniques have been around for a long time, but I don't see much impact. If such techniques on more that a minority of people, those open-minded to discussion and compromise, then it should equally apply to all viewpoints. Could a Nazi persuade you to approve of their viewpoints and actions? Can Christian evangelicals persuade you that their viewpoint is correct and that LGBTQ+ people should be demonized?
I doubt it. Right now, India could use a huge dose of such techniques to reduce the attacks on Muslims. My guess is that most people attacking Muslims are not persuadable that their actions are wrong. But if you have data showing otherwise, I am open to listening.
I'd like to check-in on this topic. Thank the professor for observing Matt's discussion.
Racism is bad - and clearly exists in our present time and its alive and well in the good ole USA. Slavery... has been with mankind (lawfully) since ancient times - me thinks long before white suprmacists became self-inflated with racism. In general the ancients, may not have been as racist as us folks in modern times. Sezs me
IMHO there is no place for racism in our domocracy (majority rule & defenders of the weakest), which is a constitutional republic. Where, slavery is clearly included/addressed in the document of our constitution.
How are we to discuss <more importantly teach our children> about such topics? Slavery was outlawed <nod>. But liberty and justice for *ALL* - doesn't seem to be critical to every citizen. I think I see weakness here, espeically from some of those serving in congress and state houses today.
Dick and Jane, need to eventually learn about our history - including dark chapters -like Tulsa's - like wonded knee -list is great -- Guilt shouldn't be an objective of the lessons taught, when content is less than flatering of the great USA.
Eichengreen: Given the level of economic literacy of the audience at Jackson Hole, maybe "debt" is the best way for to frame the issue. But let's be clear: “debt” is not an issue. The issue is not even "deficits," although that is closer. The issues is, the wisdom of the taxing and spending decisions that summed to the deficits and debt. What was, what is the rate of return on the projects and activities that are the object of the expenditures? If the expenditure is financed with taxes, what is/was the rates of return on the projects and activities forgone by the taxpayers. If financed with deficits, what is/was the rates of return on the projects and activities forgone by the debt purchasers. [And if the object of the taxing/borrowing/spending was to transfer consumption among people, how efficient was/is the transfer mechanism?]
Five years ago Moretti made a sympathetic film Santiago, Italia (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago,_Italia - only in Italian and French, not in English) about the coup (including shots of the presidential palace getting bombed), about the first weeks and months after the coup and about the lives of many Chileans who moved to Italy to escape Pinochet.
On racism and guilt -- one thing is very clear to me: you cannot build a long term relationship between groups of people based on guilt, especially over things that they did not do as individuals. It may work in the short run but eventually you will get a push back and people will say "Hell no". Regret on the other hand is different. Regret is an emotion that can be shared. And of course there is the issue of slavery. But one must consider that nearly every person alive today is the descendant of slaves, serfs, and peasants stuck in some system of enforced labor and living on the verge of starvation.
So how would one reframe the situation as one of regret rather than guilt? If slavery was something in the past, that is not impacting the descendants of slavers today, what will make them regret that slavery was institutionalized for their current benefit? Do Russians regret the pogroms? Do Brits regret the colonialism of the empire? (quite the reverse.) As Britain's role in maintaining slavery after its abolition is uncovered, there is a desire to pretend it never happened. Even academics who should be able to compartmentalize seem emotionally engaged. I suspect the that this is much deeper than our "rational" neocortex can deal with, as the emotional "tribalism" is far stronger for many people, especially those that like the outcome. In a different domain, wealthy people do not seem to regret exploiting people while amassing their wealth.
With neo-nazis and white supremacists openly encouraging cleansing of the nation's genetics, what are we supposed to do - just let them without pushing back hard?
Divide into two: teachers teach, and politicians construct coalitions by focusing on pocketbook issues...
Exactly what DeSantis and other "anti-woke" politicians are NOT doing. Political idealogy is forcing itself on education and culture. We know the influence Hollywood (and before it, dime novel publishers) had on the perception of the settlement of the American West. As an economics historian, you know well what the Nazis did to education in Germany, an MO that seems to being followed in the US.
So no, your suggested solution will not work.
I would say that you cannot get white supremacists to feel guilty but there may be a path to reach the humanity of folks -- not telling them they should be guilty for what their ancestors did but ask them to look clearly and honestly at the past. No one should feel guilt for what someone else has done but one can feel regret. It is my thought that the rise of white supremacy is largely driven by attempts to make people to feel guilty and it just doesnt work.
One might consider that almost everyone today is a descendant or a slave or peasant who lived on the verge of starvation for their entire life.
This seems all rather touchy-feely to me. What evidence do you have to back it up. In addition, how does this apply to the wider phenomenon of hate, e.g. anti-Semitism, and not just in the US, but historically. I think you have to look deeper into human nature, not apply some cultural history to explain hate against out groups.
I would suggest taking a look at Forum for Dialogue, a group in Poland that promotes open dialog with the world wide Jewish community, especially Jews whose ancestors once lived in Poland. http://dialog.org.pl/en/
I think some of this comes out of my own working experience. If you attack folks they become more solidified in their beliefs behind their fortress walls but if you tell them that you dont understand where they are coming from their is an oppotunity, though not a guarentee, that they will lower their guard. Of course it could be that I am wrong, any human can make a mistake.
While such techniques have been around for a long time, but I don't see much impact. If such techniques on more that a minority of people, those open-minded to discussion and compromise, then it should equally apply to all viewpoints. Could a Nazi persuade you to approve of their viewpoints and actions? Can Christian evangelicals persuade you that their viewpoint is correct and that LGBTQ+ people should be demonized?
I doubt it. Right now, India could use a huge dose of such techniques to reduce the attacks on Muslims. My guess is that most people attacking Muslims are not persuadable that their actions are wrong. But if you have data showing otherwise, I am open to listening.
I'd like to check-in on this topic. Thank the professor for observing Matt's discussion.
Racism is bad - and clearly exists in our present time and its alive and well in the good ole USA. Slavery... has been with mankind (lawfully) since ancient times - me thinks long before white suprmacists became self-inflated with racism. In general the ancients, may not have been as racist as us folks in modern times. Sezs me
IMHO there is no place for racism in our domocracy (majority rule & defenders of the weakest), which is a constitutional republic. Where, slavery is clearly included/addressed in the document of our constitution.
How are we to discuss <more importantly teach our children> about such topics? Slavery was outlawed <nod>. But liberty and justice for *ALL* - doesn't seem to be critical to every citizen. I think I see weakness here, espeically from some of those serving in congress and state houses today.
Dick and Jane, need to eventually learn about our history - including dark chapters -like Tulsa's - like wonded knee -list is great -- Guilt shouldn't be an objective of the lessons taught, when content is less than flatering of the great USA.
Mui: right
Duy wrong
Eichengreen: Given the level of economic literacy of the audience at Jackson Hole, maybe "debt" is the best way for to frame the issue. But let's be clear: “debt” is not an issue. The issue is not even "deficits," although that is closer. The issues is, the wisdom of the taxing and spending decisions that summed to the deficits and debt. What was, what is the rate of return on the projects and activities that are the object of the expenditures? If the expenditure is financed with taxes, what is/was the rates of return on the projects and activities forgone by the taxpayers. If financed with deficits, what is/was the rates of return on the projects and activities forgone by the debt purchasers. [And if the object of the taxing/borrowing/spending was to transfer consumption among people, how efficient was/is the transfer mechanism?]
That Pinochet thing - that's 50 years ago.
Five years ago Moretti made a sympathetic film Santiago, Italia (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago,_Italia - only in Italian and French, not in English) about the coup (including shots of the presidential palace getting bombed), about the first weeks and months after the coup and about the lives of many Chileans who moved to Italy to escape Pinochet.
Thanks...
I do seem to have lost a decade, somehow...